Coming from a mining manufacturing background, Darryl Cracknell took a chance to chase his passion. Find out how he ended up where he is today and why he loves what he’s doing now in this episode of Property Investory.

Timestamps:
0.59 | From Manufacturing to Mortgage Broking
4.29 | Growing Up in Two Countries
14.14 | Leaving School at 17 Years Old to His First Property in 2007
19.00 | The Leap of Faith into the Property Profession
22.26 | Development Woes
25.06 | What the Future May Hold and Lessons Learnt

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0.17 | Changing Careers and Succeeding
4.33 | What Does a Mortgage Broker Do?
9.08 | Benefits of Building on Vacant Land
16.21 | The Approach of Different Mortgage Broker Clients
21.42 | Top Tips for Building Your Own Home
24.41 | Cracknell’s Key Influences

Resources and Links:

[17:23] I was leaving behind a good income, a secure job to go into an industry like mortgage broking. Took the leap of faith, but I'm glad I did.

Tyrone Shum:
This is Property Investory where we talk to successful property investors to find out more about their stories, mindset and strategies.

I’m Tyrone Shum and in this episode we’re speaking with Loan Gallery Finance mortgage broker Darryl Cracknell, who’s unique upbringing and property journey provides an insightful perspective into the risks that come with property investment and the importance of attention to detail.

Cracknell has been a mortgage broker for 8 years after starting off in manufacturing, and he shares with us how busy a day in the life of a mortgage broker can be.

[00:59] Previous to becoming a mortgage broker, I was in manufacturing and was doing that for a number of years, basically straight out of high school, doing that for about 15 years. I guess the path that I went on was, as in manufacturing, I started, purchased my first property in that role in that job and an investment as well. And I guess just the experience I had during that period sort of led me towards wanting to know more about the property, the property industry, the property market, how that all works. So I guess it piqued an interest, it made me realise that I had some interest in this actual industry. And here I am today.

[2:12] Every morning, after I drop off the kids to school and get them ready, I obviously just go through all the files that I'm working on. I'm preparing, responding to emails, calling new leads, new prospects, obviously calling existing customers as well that we're working on applications for and with, preparing applications to submit to banks, obviously, there's communications with lenders as well, you need to communicate with them as you're working towards obtaining an approval for your customer. So, there's a lot of emails, a lot of communications, appointments as well with customers. So it's a pretty full day. It's not a typical nine to five job, that's for sure. So you've got to be flexible, you've got to be able to, I guess have a part of your life, to be to be quite honest, from sunrise to sunset.

[3:35] Normally, I'm home by dinnertime and I'll have dinner with the family and I've got a couple of young boys, so I'll spend some good time with them after dinner. And once they're off to bed, it's generally the best time to catch up on some work, sort of around that 8-9pm afterwards time, the phone does tend to stop ringing so there's less distractions.

Growing up in the Philippines, Cracknell’s experiences from a young age gave him an open-minded worldview and an inherent sense of adaptability. 

[4:29] I was born here in Australia in Melbourne, Pascoe Vale pretty much but at a very young age, my mum's from the Philippines, so we moved over to the Philippines and I actually grew up and started schooling there. And then we came back to Australia when I was probably in grade three or four as a young child. So English wasn't great back then. But it was all good actually. Yeah, the Filipino language was my first language that I learnt. So that was quite interesting. We were sort of all over Melbourne, always been in Melbourne. From, I guess more central Melbourne to towards the end or towards the later period, towards my teenage years we were based in the western suburbs of Melbourne. And that's where I did most of my high schooling.

[5:43] It's a completely different lifestyle. And I think it helps to sort of keep an open mind to things when you do have parents of different backgrounds and different nationalities.  Growing up in the Philippines was... it's a beautiful place. I remember just going out the back and by the river, getting chased by water buffaloes, and these sorts of things. And just, it's an adventure, I'd say, it's not your typical Melbourne [upbringing] as you would experience here as a young person. So I've got to experience both.

[6:49] We probably just explored too far beyond the safe zone. I just remember all of us just running in. One of my shoes came off. And that slowed me down. And I guess that just got my heart racing even faster. It was just one of those things back then, when we were kids. It's not like it is today. You just used to go out and explore. In some sense I’m probably lucky to be alive.

Wanting to retire in the Philippines, Cracknell’s family moved there when he was young, but health complications brought him and his family back to Australia. 

[7:43] My parents built a house in Manila. Lespinasse, a smaller suburb or district was called, but it was in Manila, which is the main island of the Philippines. So yeah, I started my early schooling there, which was different. Get picked up by a bus and if you weren't behaving, you'd get a strap, that's for sure. So we had to make sure we're on our best behaviour. But it's a great experience, it's not something I look back on and think that I wish I didn't go through. I enjoyed every moment that I did, and got to experience it.

[8:33] My dad was sort of retired at that stage. So he wanted to have a beautiful life in the Philippines. Built a house there. My mum was originally from the Philippines as well. So we lived there for a few years. We got to a point though, where my dad started having heart problems. And obviously, the medical side of things overseas is not the same as what it is here in Australia. So that eventually led to us moving back here.

Even though he was born in Australia, returning to Melbourne was quite a culture shock for Cracknell. 

[10:19] It was a big change because as I mentioned earlier, my first language was actually Tagalog, the Filipino language and obviously, I'd spoken to my dad in English, but I really had that Filipino sort of slang in a lot of my pronunciations. And I guess the way I spoke wasn't proper English, so to speak. It was confronting as a, I think I might have been eight or nine years old when we moved back here. So going to a primary school, which was in Beric, at the time, where there weren't very many Asians or people of different races, it was quite challenging. I guess what stuck with me was, it didn't matter where I was, when I was in the Philippines, when I went to school there, they would call me the white guy or the American, the Yankee. And then when I came to Australia I thought I was actually coming home, coming to where I belong. But even when I arrived here, the kids were calling me [names], they weren't being too mean, but it sort of gave you the impression that you kind of don't belong anywhere. I've gotten over that now, obviously. I guess what I was touching on before is, I see it as an advantage to be able to come from those two different backgrounds and not have such a closed minded, for lack of a better term view on things to be quite honest.

[12:49] Family is a big thing for Filipinos. It's all about family, really. And with our family, we've got a huge, like this presence. We've got two sisters, here in Australia and another one in the Philippines. They have their kids as well. So, it's certainly huge for us, and particularly for my mum at the age that she's at. It's all about family and getting together during those important periods. It's absolutely huge.

Cracknell reflects on his schooling in Australia, explaining what led him down the path of manufacturing. 

[14:14] With schooling, I didn't even complete high school to be quite honest with you. So it's not that I wasn't doing well with my grades. It was just, there was no push there, no determination. I guess I was just doing school just to be in school. I wasn't really aiming for much at that point in my life, to be quite honest with you. So I was 17 when my dad passed away. And at that stage, so with me, being the youngest child, I just made the decision that I'll just go and go into the workforce at that point. So I didn't do year 12. I guess from my mum's point of view, as well. I just wanted to just give her that sort of release from pressure if there was any, from her end being a single mother at that point in time.

[15:09] But I mean, academic wise, it's not like I was doing bad. I was always good. I was always getting good marks with maths, physics, those sorts of things. I was always doing well in those classes, but I wasn't excelling or anything like that. So I left school to do an apprenticeship. That's how I guess I got into the manufacturing industry. I just got comfortable in that job. So I completed my apprenticeship, I was put in a managerial role pretty quickly after completing the apprenticeship, so I was earning a good income, six figure salary back then, which was great. And after doing a few tax returns, my accountant kept telling me that I needed to offset some of my taxes. And at the time, I didn't know what he was talking about. Obviously, he was sort of suggesting investing in property and the rest of it. And that's when I purchased my first property, probably back in 2007. 

[16:16] I purchased a small unit out in the west in Truganina. Back then, from memory, I think all that I needed to contribute was about $8,000. And I was able to buy this unit, which was my first property. So it was much easier to get into the market back then. Compare that to what first time buyers are faced with today. In manufacturing, I bought a block of land. Shortly after that, I suppose when I met my now wife. And we were looking at, hoping to obviously build our first home. And I guess some events occurred there, which didn't pan out too well, in the end. And I was getting really sort of stale. I think it may be the word in terms of my career path and where I was at. So it kind of led me to taking a bit of a leap of faith and jumping into a completely different career, which at the time was extremely scary. For sure. I was leaving behind a good, good income, a secure job to go into an industry like mortgage broking where there's no ongoing salary. From scratch, it took the leap of faith, but I'm glad I did.

Not feeling proud of his career in manufacturing after 15 years encouraged Cracknell to take this leap of faith. 

[19:00] The manufacturing was basically cast iron. So it was called a foundry. So basically, it's more we melt metal and we pour it into dyes or casts and basically produce mainly material for the mining industry, such as augers or impactors, those sorts of things. It wasn't a career that was very rewarding in terms of being able to one day tell your son, ‘Hey, this is what I did for a job’. It wasn't that kind of thing. But, as a production manager, I guess that that sort of wore me down as well,  that was the managerial position that I was in, because it didn't really matter.

[19:47] For me, it didn't really matter how well I performed or how hard I worked. It was always copping it from all angles. You were copping it from high management. You were copping it from customers if your products were late, not on time. And then you have to deal with the workers as well who are generally lazy and try to get away from doing as little as possible. It wore me down quite quickly, that role.

Cracknell’s investment journey began in 2007, when he started investing as a means of reducing tax. 

[20:53] I guess it was something that a lot of my peers, a lot of people around me were doing. People that I work with were buying their own properties. At the time, I think I was still living with my sister, actually. So I didn't want to rent, I obviously wanted to buy my own place. And that was something as well as a child growing up with parents who, I guess by the time we came back from the Philippines, we were renting as well. So we were moving from all over the place from one place to another. And that was sort of something that I didn't want to do, [be in] this sort of situation. So I guess all those things led to that point.

After this first experience, he wanted to build a forever home with his wife a few years later, but that experience was not as smooth as he’d hoped. 

[22:26] So that was the tricky part and this is why I sort of enjoy what I do today, because it's closely linked to that. So we went to these new estates, where they're developing blocks of land. We sat down with a sales consultant there. And they told us obviously, about everything that's going on in the estate, what's happening. And we were excited, we were looking forward to really building our own home, we were told that the land would title so we could start building within three or four months, so it'd be ready to go. So we were over the moon. 

[23:03] But after three months, we were told that there'd be delays. And we were told that again, after six months, then after 12 months, then after 18 months, then after 24 months, there was still nothing. During that period of time, it was quite devastating. Because it felt like your whole life was on hold, you couldn't do anything. We even went to the point of asking for our deposit back by pulling out of it. Little did we know it's an unconditional contract. There's no getting out of this. So we were stuck. We were stuck in that situation. And during that period, while we were waiting, my wife happened to get pregnant. So our whole life, it just completely changed everything. And by the time the land actually titled it was sort of just like, my wife was off work. And it was sort of just like we just the, I guess the excitement was certainly long gone. We just felt deflated. And we just basically, we settled on it in the end. But we didn't end up building, we just ended up having to let it go to be honest with you, because of the circumstances that we were in at that point in time.

[24:42] We sold it for the same price. It was probably two or three years after we sold it when the price popped up. Exactly. Sometimes you learn these lessons the hard way.

After learning these lessons and working hard to rebuild back to the point of being able to invest, Cracknell is looking to the future. 

[25:06] The property that we're living in now, it's taken a while for me to be in a position to, to invest again into purchasing property, obviously. You know, with the career change, and all in there. So, we purchased our property, probably nearly two years ago now, I think. And actually one of the properties that I did have, that unit, I just just sold as well, just recently, so I guess I'm clearing the decks now. And I'm ready to actually start. I'm gonna be in the market, basically, to start my property portfolio once again. 

[26:06] I wouldn't say putting the deposit down was the worst experience, it was probably just the delays and just not knowing, the ins and outs. If I had the knowledge that I have now, about the property market, I probably would have taken some different steps. But if I held on to that land, if I did just build on it later on, then it could be a different story. It's just that there's no guidance, I guess from, from any connections with any experts in the industry. Both my parents and my wife's parents weren't really investors, they had their own property, and they paid off their own mortgage the old fashioned way: pay off your own home, and then you'll retire comfortably, that sort of thing. So there wasn't a lot of advice or guidance that we had received, but it is what it is. 

So what would he have done differently if he had the knowledge he has now? 

[27:37] On the land side of things, I'd look into the actual estimate, when they actually, when they give an estimate of titles, I should say, when they expect the land to title I'd be looking into that much more closely. I would get a conveyancer to check the contract for me before signing an unconditional contract. In no circumstances, you sort of hope that the salesperson would tell you these things, but it's not how it works, unfortunately. I guess it's just doing more due diligence, understand particularly, I mean, I wasn't a first time buyer, but for my wife, it was the first time that I was building a home. There's a lot of excitement attached to that. Obviously, it's easy to overlook these very important things and a lot of people such as us at the time aren't even aware of these important steps that you should be taking so that's probably what I would do differently, conduct more due diligence.

Cracknell has learned a great deal about property during his journey, changing careers from manufacturing to mortgage broking. 

[0:17] The only thing that comes to mind at the moment is, I remember starting off as a mortgage broker dealing with customers, when you're new, when you're inexperienced, you can come over as a little bit nervous, which can imply that you may perhaps not know what you're talking about so much. So, I received a piece of advice from a mentor at that point in time, just to fake it basically, just pretend that you're a ten-year veteran mortgage broker. So it comes across that you're confident and you're competent. But I guess when I got to the point where I was just talking to people, as a person, rather than as a mortgage broker trying to win their business, just being real to a person, I think that was an ‘aha’ moment. Because then you sort of see people open themselves up, relax and feel more comfortable about telling you whatever it is that you need to know.

[2:44] I actually considered going into real estate as well, myself. It's actually the first property that I bought, I actually sold it myself through vendor finance. And going through that experience, where I would bring people into the home, show them around, you're selling, you're trying to sell your home, it was quite an exciting experience for me, dealing and interacting with people. And I guess that's where I sort of thought real estate may be the way, funnily enough, the first gig that I did get, leaving manufacturing was with a company where it was sort of a dual role; you were a mortgage broker, but mainly what you're doing is you're selling investment properties to people. And I guess having that dual role, the sales portion just didn't, I just wasn't comfortable with that. I'm not a salesperson. And I just enjoyed the mortgage broking side of things much more, because you just feel like you're, rather than trying to sell something to someone, you're actually on their side, and you're actually trying to help them out, rather than trying to sell a product. So that just sat with me more. So after about three years with that first company that I worked with, as a mortgage broker, I did venture out and that's where I found Loan Gallery because I just wanted to be purely a mortgage broker, I really didn't want to sell properties.

Going into more detail, he tells us about the function of his mortgage broking in respect to who he works with.

[4:33] One of the things that really attracted me to coming to Loan gallery was the amount of leads that they have. Basically, they've established a relationship with Metricon, who are the biggest builder in the country. And they've been working together for the last nine years now, I believe. And that allows me to basically just focus on the finance side of things. Obviously, Metricon has got their sales consultants who sell the homes and can help their customers find land as well, to build on. So I guess that takes away that side of things from my end. And I guess with that, what we're doing is a lot of house and land loans. So purchasing vacant land and construction loans as well, obviously having that close relationship with Metricon. A lot of first time buyers as well come through that channel. 

[5:28] So being able to help them. And again, with the journey that I've been on, it's something that I really enjoy doing just to make sure that they've got that guidance, and they know exactly, it's not about just getting excited with them, it's about I try to sort of bring them back down to earth a bit and just let them know about the actual risks involved as well, so that they're going through this with their eyes wide open, basically.

Cracknell further explains the type of work his company and its collaborators do. 

[6:31] Metricon is a builder. They build residential properties, so if anyone's looking to build their own home that they want to live in, Metricon is, as I mentioned earlier, the biggest builder in the country, so they'll be able to service that to an extent. If you've already got your own land, or if you're knocking down, maybe your old, existing property, and you want to build on your current block of land, they can also assist with that. So anything to do with building residential property, Metricon certainly can [help], there's a service there that they can provide. And, I guess how we tie in with Metricon is predominantly around the finance side of things. From their perspective, they do a lot of work in terms of preparing contracts and going through [with] their customers in terms of choosing all the fixtures and finishings in their home and the rest of it. What they're looking for [from us] is just some peace of mind, knowing that the customers they are dealing with can qualify for finance at the end of the day, because at the end of the day, if they can't get that loan from the bank, then Metricon is unable to build. 

[7:42] That's where we come along, we can not only give Metricon that peace of mind in terms of giving them the confidence that they're working with someone who can actually qualify and build a home. But obviously, we're able to guide their customers as well to ensure that they're building something within their means, not stretching their budget. At the end of the day, it's a great result for everyone. 

He answers the question of why you would buy an empty piece of land and build on it, rather than invest in an existing property. 

[9:08] Aside from the obvious benefits that you know, it's a brand new home, no one's ever lived in it before. There's, for first home buyers as well, there's some benefits in terms of being able to qualify for the government grant of $10,000 1st home owners grant. Well, it is here in Victoria, I should say. That's purely for new property. So if you're purchasing an existing property as a first home buyer, you won't be able to qualify for that. 

[9:35] Also, in terms of the stamp duty concessions as well that are applicable for first home buyers, so I guess here in Victoria, again, each state is going to be different, but here in Victoria, if you're purchasing an established property above $600,000, then that's where the concessions sort of the 100% concession cuts off, there will be some stamp duty applicable. But you know, if you're building a house and land where you might be building something for $800,000. But as long as the land is less than $600,000 then you'll still be able to get that full stamp duty concession, because I guess the calculation or the dutiable value that the state government calculates will be just on the land the value of the land itself. So there's a saving there. And even if you're an investor, if you're purchasing an established property, then obviously the stamp duty implications [are there], whereas if you're building house and land, again, the stamp duty is just calculated off the land value rather than the whole property price, which is once it's finished building.

[11:19] With an established property, you don't know what hidden surprises may be in store for you, which could end up costing you even more. So, absolutely, the initial outlay would be less for purchasing a brand new property, building a new home, compared to purchasing established, those surprises as well. Who knows what could be lurking in terms of things, maybe breaking down appliances and the rest of it?

Focusing in on the key demographic for his business, Cracknell goes through some of the mindset of clients he sees and speaks to. 

[12:02] I would have to say a majority is definitely homebuyers, whether it's the first, second or third home, it's hard to [identify] a strong majority [of clients] that we see to be quite honest with you. In terms of investors, I've got a few clients of my own, I probably can't speak too much from I a broad, broad sense, but we've got a few customers of my own who did build with Metricon initially and have come back and wanted to build again, for an investment, or what they do is they'll build an even bigger and better home, maybe the dream home and keep their first home, as in convert that into an investment. 

Cracknell continues to distinguish the processes of purchasing an existing property and purchasing land before building a property. 

[13:35] I guess the main difference is, compared to purchasing an existing property if it is an existing property, you've got the one settlement basically where the funds from your loan goes to your purchase, whereas with construction, it's sort of broken down into different stages. The first stage is once once your land is settled, a portion of the loan will obviously go towards paying for whatever's left owing or whatever the remaining purchase price is and then what the bank will do though is they will hold the funds back for construction. So they won't actually pay the builder until they've started progressing through the build. 

[14:18] And generally there's five different stages of the construction. The first stage is generally the base stage, then you've got the frame where basically the builder will put the frame up of the house. And then you've got the lockup where basically the property is considered locked up. So you know, you'd have to have your brick work or whatever it is, and you've got your door so you can essentially lock up the house. And then you've got fixtures or fixing which is just the internal stuff, putting in all the walls and all the appliances, cabinetry and those sorts of things. And then the last stage is completion. So generally once a builder completes each of those stages, they will send the customer an invoice for the works done during that portion of the build, and then it's a matter of the customer who basically would just need to give, send that invoice to their bank and just give them confirmation that they're happy for the bank to pay the builder. So the builder can continue on with building their home, I suppose. And we're there, with our customers throughout that whole journey as well. So we're not just getting them approved and then see ya later, we're actually guiding them through the whole process too. So it is a longer process. It's not just one settlement. And that's it.

With this process in mind, he discusses the different approaches clients take, explaining how the operation of a construction loan works.

[16:21] Some people will just buy the land first and sit on it for a little while. Ideally, though, if you wanted to start building straightaway, then you would apply, we would apply for a home loan. So both the land and the construction at the same time. In order for the bank to give us an approval for that loan, though, we do need to provide them with a signed build contract. So you would have needed to have chosen all your fixtures, and finishings, all the inclusions in your home, you would have needed to finalise those things, your floor plans and the rest of it as well. Because we need to determine how much you are building for, they'll get valuations done on that as well. 

[17:36] What it comes down to is the LVR [which] is the loan to value ratio. If you're aiming to avoid Lenders Mortgage Insurance, then you need a 20% lien. But you were incorporating the land value in the loan that you've taken out for the land in that as well, because obviously that falls under the same value for that construction portion, I suppose. It depends on different banks’ processes [which are conducted] differently as well. Some banks will want to hold back the full amount in order to complete construction. So whatever it is that you needed to contribute, would generally have to be contributed at land settlement. But other banks structure it differently, where they will sort of require you to make a small contribution at the start of construction before they'll release funds to complete it, basically.

[18:57] Each customer is going to be different, right? Everyone's going to be in a different circumstance. Some may be able to come up with a 20% deposit and avoid Lenders Mortgage Insurance, happy days, some may have parents who would be willing to provide a security guarantee. In those cases, they need minimal contribution if they don't have the savings, they don't necessarily need to. And then you've got people who may struggle to come up with a minimum deposit. So we work closely with our customers over the long term as well. A lot of our customers that we see are purchasing land that's not titling for 12 to 18 months, maybe even 24 months. And that may be just perfect and suitable for them because they may not have enough savings right now. But what we can do is we can give them an understanding of the numbers and put a savings plan in place that they can stick to. And basically by the time that the land is titled, then they've got the sufficient funds in their savings to give them the best chance of qualifying for a home loan. It just comes down to the specific customer's circumstances and what they're capable of contributing. 

[21:07] Different banks process things differently. They have different processes. So it can become tricky when you've got banks who do require the loans to be split. It can make things a little bit a little bit more confusing. But overall, it's still the same thing, if you're just looking at it from an overall picture.

He shares with us his best tips for anyone considering building their own home 

[21:42] Do the due diligence that I didn't do. Speak to friends, family, but moreso, the experts, so speak to a mortgage broker. Preferably a mortgage broker who does specialise in house and land space, because what I come across a lot is customers, first time buyers who may have gone to a bank. And maybe they've only got 10 or $15,000 in savings at this point in time. The response that they get is, you can't get a home loan right now come back when you've got 60 or $70,000. So we can help those those people out, if we can just show them what sort of a savings plan they would need to employ in order to get them into a position because, just saying save 60 or 70,000 to someone doesn't mean anything, right? And what we find is with our customers, once they've actually committed to securing a house and land package, and we put them on these savings plans, they actually, more often than not, actually exceed what they initially thought that they were capable of saving. Because when you're not saving for anything in particular, it's just too hard. It's just you might get you might do okay for a little while, but then you know, things in life will happen. But once you've actually got something, a goal in mind you're aiming for, that helps you achieve your goal, in my opinion. Speak to the experts, speak to mortgage brokers, conveyancers, get all the advice that you can before taking that next step. 

[23:50] 15 years ago, when I purchased my first home, those days are long gone, where you can just turn around and say, ‘Well, I'm gonna buy a house today just, you know, put in $8000-$9000. That's fine.’ It's a long term goal. So if you can find someone who's willing to show you how to get there, then you're well on your way.

Cracknell mentions the books that have influenced his professional life, and discusses the influence of his mentors when starting out in property. 

[24:41] During the early days when I was sort of looking at what to do you know the old classics Think and Grow Rich, Rich Dad Poor Dad. How to Win Friends and Influence People, those classic books they get your mind on the right track, I suppose in terms of heading in the right direction. If you haven't read those books, they are classics. So get a hold of those.

[25:37] The previous company I worked for was really pushing the sales side of things in terms of the psychology of your customers and all those sorts of things. There were a couple of really great salespeople with that company that I learned a lot from. I don't regret working for that company. Because they did, they did teach me a lot. And they gave me that opportunity that I needed. But I guess from those the mentors that I had there, I did take away a lot from how I guess just how they operated in terms of professionalism, I suppose.

If you could say something to yourself 10 years ago, what would it be? And what are you excited about for the future?

[27:20] Get back into the investing side of things sooner. But I guess I was restricted in terms of starting out again, changing careers. So it would have been about 10 years ago, when I was actually considering changing careers, because it was something that was in the back of my mind, sort of, because it wasn't an easy decision to make. So it took a while to work up a bit of courage for me to actually take that leap, to be honest with you, it wasn't until my son was born. And just looking at him one day, and just realising ‘Okay, I've got to try something, I can't just do this forever.’ So I think he, as he always has done since he's been born, just gives me the strength to take those challenges on. 

[28:21] Property certainly, there's a lot of doom and gloom reports out there at the moment in the media in terms of where the property market's heading and the rest of it, but we've just been through a global pandemic. [Even] that couldn't slow down the property market. So, no doubt there's going to be a flat period, no doubt interest rates will rise, but there's still going to be demand out there for property. So I'm really looking forward to what’s in store over the next five years. 

Thank you to Darryl Cracknell, our guest on this episode of Property Investory.